Saturday, December 15, 2007

Clemens and Bonds: Kings of the Chemical Era

There is so much I like about Roger Clemens. The intensity, the wanting of the ball in a clutch situation, willingness to throw inside and own the plate and so forth. Yet, due to his fake non-denial denial I am left with no other choice to lump him in the same category as Barry Bonds.

His denial centered on never failing a drug test. The exact same tack taken by Barry Bonds and track star Marion Jones. Not failing a drug test does not say you never took steroids, and does not dispute someone injected you with a needle - the lack of saying of such is in my view an admission of guilt.

I'm going to steal a little bit of Jim Rome: If it is not true then say I never took 'roids, and that clown never injected me with a needle. Then go on a litigation rampage like it is no one's business: sue George Mitchell, ESPN, MLB, Brian McNamee, every news outlet that made the report available, and so on. Stand on the rooftops and scream it loud and proud.

David Justice, not that he is relevant anymore, pro actively went out and addressed the issue and started to clear his name. A-Rod on 60 minutes said point blank: I never doped. By not directly addressing the issue to me is saying you were caught. If it is true, then just say so. American sports fans can be a forgiving bunch - if you show some honesty, admit what you did, and offer a rationale explanation as to why. That is the only path to respectability. Silence will only allow the clouds to continue to hover - direct dialog makes them go away.

Mitchell Report: At the end of the day, this report basically said what we all said it would be on the 12/12 post. The report's main source centered on any BALCO ties and a disgruntled trainer (thus the reason for a concentration of players from certain teams and geographic regions). Again, not exactly an earth shattering report, but I'd say it did highlight the clear need to develop a method to detect HGH and that's about it.

The bottom line conclusion is this: In baseball, the use of chemicals does boost performance and is unfair to those guys that were clean. Look at Clemens' numbers before the alleged time of doping and after. There is a dramatic difference and three Cy Youngs. Same with Bonds (power numbers increased on an average of 45% per season post Clear and Cream). Which means the two best players over the last two decades are frauds. -- thanks for the memories.

The sport needs the likes of A-Rod, Albert Pujols, David Ortiz, Jake Peavey and Josh Beckett now more than ever to step up and dominate (and of course, not fail a drug test).

Out of anyone, Andy Pettitte may be the one guy Selig uses as an example with punishment - if it is true. So I guess I'd like to hear Pettitte's reply and then move on from here.



The Scooter said...


Always whispers about he being a juicer. Absolutely no surprise here. I rooted for him when he was throwing bats at Piazza, knowing that the possibility existed that he wasn't totally clean, so it would be hypocritical of me to throw him out with the trash now. I hope he either comes clean or fights the accusations with the gusto that he handled his career on the mound.


Now I don't want to come off as an apologist for him, but there needs to be some designation of levels of guilt in this whole thing. I don't think Selig has a leg to stand on as far as suspending him goes. He was only accused of taking HGH once, while rehabbing an injury at a time when HGH WAS NOT on the MLB list of banned substances. To me, there is no grounds for suspension. From Michell's report, it does not appear that he used it to "enhance performance", rather he used it (allegedly) to help him recover from an injury. Call it what you will, but it doesn't compare to what Clemens, Bonds, Tejada, Palmiero, etc etc etc are accused of.

As for the Press jumping on this tainted Yankee dynasty thing...that's ridiculous.

First of all they point to the fact that there were NINE "dynasty" Yankees on that list. Glenallen Hill; Jason Grimsley; Denny Neagle; Jose Canseco; Randy Velarde. These five did NOTHING to help win any of the Yankee championships.

Subtract Pettite (see my comments above) and you have Clemens; Knobby and Justice. Three too many to be sure, but if anyone thinks that all other major league teams didn't have at least three important players that were on the juice, then they are crazy.

I think it is also critical that we don't lose touch of the fact that the list was certainly not a comprehensive list. Don't be so quick to exonerate the likes of A-Rod, Albert Pujols, David Ortiz, Jake Peavey and Josh Beckett
and anyone else for that matter. The fact that they didn't show up in this report does not mean they were clean.

I mean, Piazza himself wasn't on the list, and does anyone actually believe that he never stuck a needle in his ass (among other things, not that there is anything wrong with that)?

Crash said...

For the sake of baseball I hope A-Rod is clean. If I had to bet on certain players who used that weren't named...I would look to oft-injured pitchers. It wouldn't surprise me to hear names like Peavy, Sheets, Burnett, Schmidt, or Mulder. I guess we have to wait and see. The only thing I do know is that we will never know everyone who used.

Mid, just to clarify I doubt Clemens was injected with needles. That would hurt.

Crash said...

Nice to see Pettitte step up. To bad Clemens doesn't have the stones to step up.

Clemens and Bonds should be banned from the Hall. They clearly took their use above and beyond all others.

old professor said...

Two points to clarify, first the Mitchell Report does not indicate that David Justice used steroids or HGH. The testimony by the Assistant Trainer indicated that he and Justice discussed using the substances. The testimony does not go further than that. And consequently if Justice did use, his 2001 Season would be a clear indication that the drugs do not enhance performance.

If HGH was not on the banned substance list and Pettitte used it to heal, what is the difference between that and shots of cortisone to aleviate pain and speed healing.

Crash said...

Old Prof, wow you may have actually read some of the report good job. Yes the report does not say Justice ever took HGH, but outside of Clemens and Pettitte, I don't recall it saying anything about anyone "using"...everyone purchased.

I also think there is a significant difference between getting HGH from your personal trainer (better known as the black market...which is illegal) and having a cortisone shot administered by a team physician (last time I checked ok by the law). Yes there was no rule broken technically in the world of MLB, but bottom line Pettitte knew what he did was wrong from the moment he did it. He wouldn't have denied it all this time if it wasn't.

And don't take this as if I'm putting down Pettitte, I'm not. I'm glad he stepped up and is willing to deal with this thing head on and get most of it out of the way before spring training starts in 60 days.

On to the NFL...57 was dead wrong about the Dolphins (I think I called the outright win and maybe Old Prof as well). The Giants played like crap. The # of dropped balls by Giant receivers was ridiculous. I know the wind was bad but when the ball hits you in the hands or in the #'s you have to make the catch. Toomer, Burress, and Jacobs all dropped key passes. I think Jacobs dropped 4. I haven't missed Tiki at all this season until last night, he wouldn't have dropped those passes. Giants need to take care of business against the Bills and make a real good showing against the Patriots, in order to build some momentum for the playoffs.

The Scooter said...

I have to admit, the more I think about this whole Clemens thing the more upset I get. Initially I was like "who really cares? If half the batters he was facing were juiced up as well, it's sort of a victimless crime".

But then I think about all the young ballplayers from the ages of around 15 to 22 that have worshiped and looked up to "The Rocket". What would he tell them, if they came to him and asked if they should take steroids to become a better ballplayer? I wonder what he would tell his son Cody, If he came to him for advice on the subject....."Hey Dad, I think if I take some Juice, I could make it to the bigs...whattya think?"

I'm more disappointed by the minute.

The NFL:

The Giants were pathetic, anemic and any other word that ends in "ic" that you could think of. The loss of Shockey guarantees "one and done" in the playoffs. Sad thing is that Coughlin has probably done enough to get an extension. This assures that they will be mired in mediocrity for the foreseeable future.

I thought the Jets actually competed pretty well against MY PATS. And how friggin hot did Jessica Simpson look in that pink Romo jersey?

Looks like it's back to the drawing board for the ole Buffalo Bills. You guys are about as set at the QB position as the aforementioned Jets are.

How bad are the Ravens?

I am very much looking forward to watching Mercury Morris breakdown like a bitch when the Pats go 19-0.

old professor said...

Crash, if you look back at the issue of HGH when it first surfaced, (NFL Players)the shots were being administered by a doctor in North Carolina. The doctor by the way is now doing time and lost his license to practice. However, the same players can go to the Carribean and get injected legally. George Will had a very interesting comment when asked about the steroid scandal (he is still part a very small owner in the Orioles) and his comment seemed very logical. He does not believe that testing will catch anyone - his rationale was linked to the NFL. In 1980 only one player in the league was over 300 pounds, now, there are dozens and as he put it the weight gain has nothing to do with Cheeseburgers.

Speaking of the Orioles, Peter Angelos has come out and was very critical of the Mitchell Report and how the information was gathered. He basically called the report and the methodology as flawed.

Crash said...

The report definitely had flaws. But it has credibility. Many players named in the report have come out and admitted the report is accurate.

George Will is still living in the dark ages if he made that statement. Technology has advanced and is so specific now..."big" guys can be over 300lbs and strong without using PEDs. NFL players can still use OTC supplements. The NFL has even partnered with some companies to say they are approved and up to the players can't use the "tainted supplement" excuse when they test positive.

Mike Golic made a great point this morning. Why is football and baseball different? In football Mariman tests positive, gets suspended and was still voted for and nearly won D-player of the year. But baseball writers will keep Bonds and Clemens out of the HOF and try not to acknowledge their accomplishments.

57 said...

Thank you Scooter for seeing my point of view from my blog.. the kids of the world were the losers.. there is hope for you yet.


old professor said...

57, exactly where do you want Bill Clinton to go?

The Scooter said...

Once again 57, you miss the point (surprise surprise). It's not the "REPORT" that has caused our youth to suffer....the report is the first step to making things right. It's the fact that these guys took the roids to begin with. If you need me to further explain the difference to you, give me a shout.

Hillary is looking pretty good on the front page of the Drudge Report today. That picture that the AP ran just ended all possibility of her getting the nomination.

57 said...

Did anyone catch the A-Rod 60 minutes interview? Anything eye-opening?

old professor said...

The A-Rod interview was not really surprising other than he was at his house sitting in a chair in the middle of the room. He apparently has lost a lot of respect for his agent. Has not talked to Boras since the opt out report. He would not throw any of his teammates under the bus for steroid use. Just felt it was unfortunate and everyone needs to move on. Great house in Coral Gables. He also takes batting practice everyday in a custom made batting cage.

Mid said...

And he got a little side action with Katie.

Crash said...

That was all a PR move set-up by Boras. Boras doesn't care if the public doesn't like him, but if they don't like A-Rod that impacts his marketability, and that impacts the $$$, for both A-Rod and Boras.

Crash said...

On a side note, can the Baltimore Orioles look any more foolish??? Just a couple of days after denouncing the Mitchell Report and it's inclusion of Brian Roberts, based off of "hearsay", Roberts comes out and admits he took steroids, not HGH, in 2003. Of course it was only 1 time and he regrets it. Even though his stats would seem to indicate he used in 2005 rather than 2003 (he hit more HRs and was about 50 points above his career average), I could see him using in 2003. It was his first full season at the MLB level. He was probably nervous about making it.

Roberts could end up with a suspension from this. He's admitting to steroid use after a policy was in place and after MLB began testing.

57 said...

Have you seen the pictures of Jennifer Love Hewitt in Hawaii in the ocean? I almost vomited.

57 said...

here is the link to the pics... the one from the back is bad...

Crash said...

I still wouldn't kick JLH to the curb. I think the media, and the American public, needs to make up their collective mind. They photograph JLH at the beach and call her fat, but then slam women like Terri Hatcher, the Olsens, Mischa Barton, and Nicole Richie for being too thin. They have this very narrow description of "perfect" (Jessica Alba maybe) and God forbid you don't fit into that.

This kind of critique use to be reserved for just women. Unfortunately for us, due to guys like Matthew McConaughey, guys are now being ripped apart as well. Time to hop on that treadmill.

Mid said...

Careful you might hurt the treadmill. . .

Crash said...

Clemens finally responds directly (well through his agent) and he is sticking to his guns, just more emphatically. He is now saying he never took HGH or steroids (no longer just the I never failed a test statement). It sounds like he is getting ready to pursue legal action.

The Scooter said...

Word on the street is that McConaughey gets his Juice from Rodomski.

I hate to say it....but I'm not buying Clemens' denial. I seriously doubt you will see any legal action. He's just coming out on record (not under oath by the way) to try and salvage the Hall of Fame vote.

That JLH photo was just wrong. Here's a tip Jen....Order a salad.

57 said...

If by perfect you mean Scarlett Johannson, then i would agree with you.

Each day that passes, the Clemens denial makes Andy Pettitte look better and better.

I would have loved to have listened to one of George Bush's tapped phone lines during the conversation between Pettitte and Clemens before Pettitte came to the media with his admission. You have to think that Andy called him to let him know that he was going to admit.

Clemens will come out an admit to it from "George's box" in July at Yankee Stadium in order to give Suzyn Waldman the chance at the 2nd orgasm of her life.

old professor said...

EPSN had an interview with Drew Rosehous (spelling could be way off - agent for T. Owens)and asked him about the Clemens statement. He was emphatic - "If it comes down to believing Clemens or a Rat, I believe Clemens."

Through all of the news with the Mitchell report, it may have been missed, but Vizciano has signed with another team.

Crash said...

I would expect an agent to always side with the players. So no surprise on the comments by Drew. Not a shock about Vizcaino, he was asking too much and the Yanks weren't interested.

If Congress gets involved again with baseball, I would like to see Clemens in front of them under oath. If he pulls a McGwire, he's a lying piece of $*%@.

Mid said...

In this country we are innocent until proven guilty.

Yet Clemens has to prove he is innocent. I like the strong denial. (I don't believe him yet though). Buster O. says the next step will be his version of events in January in front of Congress. Once that testimony is one, he is expected to go on a legal rampage to try and salvage his image.

Crash said...

Let's get something straight Mid, "innocent until proven guilty" is only in criminal law. It doesn't apply to the Mitchell report, MLB, talk shows, blogs, or public perception/opinion. Clemens will be guilty for as long as we say he is guilty. The only way for him not to be guilty is if McNamee admits he lied to federal investigators.

57 said...

Take a look at Curt Schilling's official blog site and what he says about Clemens/Mitchell report. Long read, but interesting take from a current player.

Crash said...

Curt is a guy that loves to hear himself talk. I'm surprised he waited this long to say something. I think it's funny how he was posting on his blog almost daily, then the Yankees spanked him in a start and he didn't show up on his own blog for 2 weeks.

Schil is an idiot egomaniac. I'm glad he came back for another year, so at least the Yankees can beat 1Red Sox pitcher this year.

Crash said...

Ron Mahay signs with the Royals and it looks like Prior is heading to San Diego. Somethings I just don't understand. If you have offers from the Royals and the Yankees...what makes someone pick the Royals? Even if they were offering more $, wouldn't you want to play with a realistic chance to win everyday, make the playoffs, and a championship? Isn't the game about winning? What am I missing?

With Prior I can understand it more...he elected not to sign with the Yankees when he was drafted the first time, San Diego is a playoff contender, and plus he's from San Diego. And if he can stay healthy you have a front 4 of Peavy, Young Maddux and Prior, that's a winning rotation.

old professor said...

Regarding Mahay and Prior and not signing with the Yankees, Prior made his statement long ago. When he rejected signing with the Yankees when drafted, he stated he did not want to play for the Yankees or in NY. I can't see him changing his mind from that initial time.

As for Mahay - he may be what the new free agents are preferring - anywhere but NY. In the past winning and money were king. The modern ballplayer now wants money. And realistically, being with the Yankees is no longer a sure thing to a championship. Baseball is flush with money and even the small market teams can go after free agents. I hope parity does not come to MLB as it has to the NFL.

Crash said...

I like the parity in the NFL, it keeps things interesting. True that the Yankees are not a given to make the World Series, no one is, but they have a realistic chance. The Royals chances end with the first pitch of the regular season. I know the Royals have a new quality GM, and hopefully he can change that franchise around. I just think it says a lot about the player.

The Scooter said...

I guess some players know they can't handle the "big stage". Better they admit it at the onset than crash and burn (ala Ed Whitson, Pavano, Alamar, etc) once they get to NY.

Crash said...

good point Scooter.

Hope everyone enjoys their holiday. Be safe. Best wishes.

57 said...

Merry Christmas to everyone! Enjoy the long weekend with friends and family!

The Scooter said...

Merry Christmas Friends....Hope Santa delivers the good for all of ya.

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