Saturday, November 17, 2007

Edit Update: Mo Reportedly Accepts Yankees Offer

ESPN - reports that Rivera has accepted the 3-year $45 million offer from the Yanks.

I think he caved to soon. As I stated in my initial post, if you offer Lowell and Posada 4 years there should have been a way to add a 4th for Rivera.

For you clowns that question the sanity of a 4 year offer to a player that is 38 here is what I say in reply: While still more of an exception than a rule for everyday players to be going in their 40s (absent the clear and the cream anyway), it is not uncommon for pitchers to still be throwing effectively at that age. Kenny Rogers, Greg Maddux, Trevor Hoffman, Roger Clemens, David Wells, and John Smoltz are all north of 40, they pitch better than most, and with the exception of Smoltz would be willing to argue that Mo is a better athlete than everyone of them.

Regardless whether or not a 4th year would've made sense, it just doesn't matter anymore as we now know that he has accepted the deal that was on the table and that the Yanks are better with him than without him.

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Hot Stove: I mentioned this earlier last week, and found a report repeating it so I think it is worth while to say it again: Yanks offering Hughes, Cabrera, and Duncan for Santana - Twins want Chamberlain instead of Hughes in that mix.

How much is Santana really worth?

34 comments:

Crash said...

I like the way Hank takes a stand on the contract saying this is our final offer. If Mo doesn't take it there are a couple of other closers on the market that are younger than 38. But most importantly they could always go in-house with Chamberlain. This all looks to be moot as Rivera has come to his senses, as no other team will come close to that offer, and is ready to accept the 3 year $45M deal.

On the Santana deal, which Duncan, Eric or Shelly? If it's Shelly that trade makes absolutely no sense from a Yankee perspective. The Yankees need to platoon Duncan and Giambi at 1B. If they do trade Shelly, that means they need to rely on Phillips (which they won't do), call up Eric Duncan (not big league material), or sign a free agent (no decent 1B out there...maybe Tony Clark, again???) The Twins wouldn't want either of the Duncans. Last time I checked they have an MVP 1B on their roster and he's going to get signed long term. The trading of Santana is 2-fold for the Twins. It's not that they can't afford it, but the money they don't spend on Santana they can spend on the younger Morneau.

It would make more sense for the Twins to ask for Cano, Melky, and Hughes. I like Cano and Hughes but for Santana they would both be gone if there was no other way. And don't think Cashman wouldn't pull the trigger, remember he traded Soriano (who was thought to be untouchable) for some guy named A-Rod. If the Yankes refuse Cano, look for them to add Sanchez or Horne to the deal.

The Scooter said...

If I'm reading Crash's comment right he's saying that for him, Shelly Duncan is a deal breaker but Cano isn't. Ohhhh Kayyyyyy

Once again Mid, we all thank the Lord that you are not the GM. Even "considering" giving a 38 year old pitcher a fourth year is ludicrous.

No Joba and no Cano in the Santana deal....everybody else is fair game.

Anonymous said...

Jeter for Santana? You said everyone was fair game...

Crash said...

Scooter you obviously need to put on some reading glasses or go back to school because that's not what I said at all. I expect that kind of twisting of words from Mid not you. What I'm saying is that Duncan doesn't make sense from either side. The Yankees would create a hole at 1B, with no obvious immediate solution. The Twins don't need a 1B because they have an MVP player at the position. So Duncan doesn't fit. You don't trade players just for fun, you need to create and obtain a value and fill needs. Duncan doesn't do that in any scenario.

The Twins need a decent 2B. If I were the Twins I would ask for Cano in the package. If I'm Cashaman I try to put something together without Cano. If that's a deal breaker for the Twins then see ya later Cano, thanks for the help the last couple of years. It would be a lot easier to fill a middle infield position than a 1B. I personally think Cano has already hit his ceiling. He's not great defensively, has decent power for the position but not great, and has no speed. He hits for average, that's it.

Let's try to keep the scenarios realistic. Jeter for Santana doesn't work immediately from a financial/salary position. Then you talk about the flak management would receive from Yankee fans for trading "the Captain". No matter what you think of Jeter, the vast majority of fans think the guy is great, can do no wrong, and is above "untouchable". If Jeter was only making $5M instead of $16M and wasn't the team captain, and wasn't the Boss' favorite Yankee, then yeah I would make him available.

The starting point for any trade starts with Melky and Hughes and at least 2 others. It's the "two others" that will be the hang up. If it's Cano then maybe you don't need another, if it's prospects you definitely need 2 more. If the Twins were dumb enough to take Karstens and Rasner I would have their bags packed and shipped out there before the ink was dry on the offer (Mid that was just for you). Everyone needs bullpen help do think we could throw in Farnsworth?

Middle Relief said...

As for which Duncan was on the table I assumed it was Shelly. I like him and would not want to see him go.

However, if Hughes, Cabrera, and Duncan did go for Santana I think we'd still be in the net positive.

We have Phillips and Giambi with highly regarded prospect Juan Miranda in the system in case those two can't get it right.

As for letting Cabrera and Hughes go, it would just potentially open a door for Tabata and Steven White (or Jeff Karstens of course!)

So, I'm not so sure it would be a bad deal for those three in return for Santana - - - As long as Santana passes a physical anyway, I still suspect he has arm fatigue, logged too many innings too soon, and that as a result, may have peaked.

old professor said...

You guys really amaze me. In August all of you were touting that Hughes was the next coming of Roger Clemens and would be a big time ace for the Yankees for years to come. Now there seems to be a need to package Hughes and half of the productive farm system to send to the Twins for Santana.

Let me remind you that Santana folded during the last month of the season. Going from serious consideration for a Cy Young to finishing I believe third or fourth in the voting. Some (Crash this means you) might say that given the Twins were out of the race and the issue of contract extension may have weighed on his mind. Ya that is what the Yankees need another fragile ego who packed it in because the rest of the season didn't count.

While I still question whether Hughes has the make up to be a #1, I would not include him, Kennedy, Chamberlain or Horn in a trade for Santana. While Santana would be a nice addition, the questions about Mussina still having it and whether Pettitte will come back would cause me to rethink trading any of the arms mentioned. (Spring 2007 and the constant swinging door of rookie pitchers entering the club house was a very painful experience).

As for Mid's comments that Mo deserved a four year contract. I can grant him an excuse because he took too many blows to the head in football. In Spring Training, Mo asked for a two year extension so he could retire as a Yankee. At seasons end the Yankees offer three years and money making him the richest reliever in the history of the game and he felt inclined to as for a fourth year - take a hike. Mid you mentioned a number of people who pitched into their forties: lets take a real solid look - Wells, released twice in the same year, Clemens has battled hamstring and leg problems for a number of years and was really worth the investment of $25 million this past year wasn't he? Smoltz is probably the exception to the rule. He has started, closed and started he has been the one consistent factor for the Braves. Fact as you get older, the body breaks down quicker and takes longer to recover - Yes Scooter, I speak from experience.

The only reason the Yankees offered the contract they did, because they hope Mo can stay together for the next few years until someone (J.B. Cox) will be ready for the major leagues.

Now for the issue of Miranda - he is 26 (by Cuban standards)and while he hit well at, I believe, AA there was some concern about his defensive abilities. If they promote him to AAA this year and he does well, then he may be the answer for the future.

hey 57, recovered from the thumping the Bills took from the Pats?

Mid said...

Glavine signs with the Braves -

As for willing to give him up for a trade, I'm just comparing him to the other prospects - he does not have as many (good) pitches that Joba and Kennedy have.

The Scooter said...

Santana is the best pitcher in baseball not named Josh Becket. If we learned anything from the last couple playoff disasters it's that you need one Big Shut Down guy at the top of your rotation. maybe Joba is that guy in '08 maybe not....We KNOW Santana is that guy. Any deal that does not include Chamberlain and Cano should be a no brainer for the Yanks. I love Hughes, don't get me wrong, but Santana is the goods. He could win 25 in Pinstripes.

What happened to the Torrealba deal? I just canceled my season tickets to Shea. I was so looking forward to watching Yorvit hit .220

57, nice effort at home against my Pats...show up for Christ Sake.

old professor said...

Scooter, the Torrealba deal was contingent upon his passing a physical. When Minaya was asked about the deal, his comment was "there is no agreement, we have not met with his agent nor are there any plans to do so." They have also contacted the agent for LaDuca. Sounds as if Torrealba did not pass his physical or there may be some concerns about it.

Not too long ago, there was a sports illustrated article regarding the Mets GM and how he has built teams based on diversity. Anyone take a look at the Mets lately? If Torrealba does sign with the Mets they will have only one non-hispanic position player (Wright) and only John Maines on the starting staff. One of the reasons LoDuca fell out of favor with the Mets is he made a comment about that particular makeup of the team.

Now regarding the REAL deal that Santana represents to the Yankees. That is the same philosophy that brought the Yankees Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson, Don Gullett, and David Wells. A number of years ago (probably before most of you were born) the Yankees cut an eight man deal with Baltimore to bring them Kenny Holtzman and two others - the Yankees sent Rick Cerone, Tippy Martinez and ??? to Baltimore. Holtzman was supposed to be the big ace they needed. ONE YEAR and gone.

The Scooter said...

Prof, are you really going to compare a 27 year old Santana to a 40+ Randy Johnson and a busted up Kevin Brown? and Gullet and Holtzman IN THEIR PRIME were never half the pitcher that Santana is.

We're not talking a David Wells type...we are talking about THE BEST pitcher in the league at an age where he is still in his prime. We are talking a young Pedro; a young Maddux ; and yes a young Randy Johnson.

How did it work out for the Red Sox when they gave up a few great prospects to pick up Beckett? I seem to remember seeing him walk in a parade a few weeks ago.

Don't ever put Johan's name in the same sentence as Don Gullet and Ken Holtzman again....It's beneath you, and you know better than that.

Viva Los Metropolitanos!!!

Crash said...

It will be interesting to see all of you Santana nay-sayers hop on the bandwagon if/when a trade is made, he wins not 1, but 2 maybe 3 games in the World Series for #27. Then Scooter and I will be forced to listen to Mid and the Old Man who will be saying "I told you it was a good deal." 57 will again be pouting in the corner because Pedro's arm just fell off, literally, down the stretch and the Mets missed the playoffs.

Mid said...

I think Omar is trying to compete with Isiah in terms of the worst GM in the Metro area...

Look on Santana - I think he's good, I'm just nervous about how much wear and tear is on his arm already. Other than Wang, I think he's thrown more innings than anyone right?

I'm probably wrong - I think my skeptism is founded on a hangover from prior deals that brought us Brown, Hithcock and Johnson. And that because I think Kennedy, Hughes, and Chamberlain are the real deal and we'll do fine with them.

Mid said...

If we do get Santana - instead of hearing me say I knew it was a good deal, you'll be hearing me say, I told you it was for Duncan, Cabrera, and Hughes.

The Scooter said...

I would drive Duncan, Cabrera and Hughes to Minnesota tomorrow if they could make that deal....as long as 57 lets me take his Lexxus.

old professor said...

Thank God Brian Cashman is the GM of the Yankees (never thought I would say that) and will resist trading away the future of the franchise to land ONE pitcher. Santana has had a great run in Minnesota - which by the way is not New York. Many pitchers have been great with small market teams and come to NY with great fanfare and all they do is crash and burn.

When referring to Josh Beckett - what did the Red Sox really give up? They didn't give up Lester, they didn't give up Bucholz and they didn't give up Ellsworth. The Marlins were holding a fire sale and to show you how crazy the Marlins were, they forced Boston to take Mike Lowell as part of the deal. (The Red Sox only wanted Beckett).

And I do have to agree with Mid (almost as bad as agreeing with Scooter) - Santana has thrown a lot of innings and the wear and tear he has taken is going to catch up with him - if it already hasn't.

It was only two years ago when Dontrell Willis was being thought of as one of the greatest arms in baseball. He is still young, but the velocity is down and the curve is not as effective - too much wear and tear.

By the way 57, the Mets have broken off negotiations with Torreabla - apparently he doesn't want to be a Met. Speaking of 57 - he seems to be very quiet in this blog today. Mets failures and Bills implosion must have him down.

The Scooter said...

Yea Prof, the Red Sox only gave up Hanley Ramirez in the Beckett deal. Yes the same Hanley Ramirez that scouts are saying is the "next A-Rod".

Don't align yourself with Mid, Prof...on one hand he says that giving Mariano (AT 38 YEARS OLD)a fourth year would have been OK and on the other hand he says that at 27 years old stud pitcher is going to be prone to arm fatigue....Make up your mind, Mid.

mid said...

In addition to Hanley - didn't the pitcher they gave up throw a no-hitter this year???

The Scooter said...

You're right, Mid. Anibal Sanchez was the pitcher. So Boston gave up two of the highest rated prospects in baseball, but let's face it, no way they win it all this year without Beckett.

Crash said...

Nice to see it made official with A-Rod winning the AL MVP. Obviously 2 homers in Chicago voted for Mags. Looks like the Angels and White Sox make a trade and both teams are saying they are ready for big changes and will make more big moves.

NL MVP announced tomorrow at 2pm, that should be very interesting. Could be Jimmy Rollins, Ryan Howard, David Wright, or Matt Holiday.

For the record I'm done on the Santana talks until something happens. I now realize some people will just ignore facts, history, and objective analysis in order to support their own belief system, no matter how illogical that belief may be.

The Scooter said...

No way can the NL MVP go to a player whose team tanked as bad as the Mets did....and now that it can be looked on objectively...How the Hell did Willy Randolph keep his job?

57 said...

The Bills were overmatched... and for God's sake Scooter, you have more favorite NFL teams than clauses in Stay-Rod's contract.. (which, by the way, Crash you stole 'Stay-Rod' from me) Pick one team for crying out loud. The Bills will rebound and win this weekend..mark it down.

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You guys are wasting breath with Santana going to the Yankees. He'll be a Met.

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Prof, you forgot to give props to Glavine as the 40+ pitchers. But thank God he is gone from the Mets.

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David Wright will win the NL MVP..he is a poster boy for MLB and pure sport. A good role model for kids to look up to. It would be a mistake if they did not give it to him for MANY reasons.

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The BCS stands for Bowl's Containing Shit... I hate Division 1 football

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The Scooter said...

Staff officially announced:

First Base Tony Pena

Hitting Coach Kevin Long

Pitching Coach Dave Eiland

Bullpen Coach Mike Harkey

Special Pitching Instructor
Rich Monteleone

Bench Coach Rob Thomson

Third Base Coach Bobby Meacham

Anonymous said...

bench coach is the singer from Matchbox 20?

The Scooter said...

So the guy is multi-talented, Anon.

Mid said...

good on the radio - lousy at predicting anything that has anything to do with baseball - 57.

NL MVP goes to a player on a playoff team.

Crash said...

Rollins - MVP...not a huge surprise.

The Scooter said...

Mets got their catcher....Not that Estrada is any good, but It's addition by subtraction in getting rid of Mota.

Crash said...

Heard a report on Mike and the Mad Dog that Cano and Chamberlain would not be considered in any deal for Santana, but Hughes, Kennedy and Melky could absolutely be available.

The Scooter said...

Happy Thanksgiving Mid, Prof, Crash, 57, and anyone else I missed.....and to all your families as well.

Crash said...

Likewise Scooter and everyone else on the board, have a safe and Happy Thanksgiving.

Crash said...

There was a report on ESPN that Shelly Duncan was recently released from the hospital following a blood clot. Apparently Cashman asked the family not to say anything and refer all inquiries back to him. To me this would most likely indicate Duncan was at least being shopped to other teams. Mid may have been right...(oh God that was painful)...

Mid said...

Tori Hunter in deal with the Angels.

57 said...

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone on the page. I also wish a Happy Thanksgiving to the Santana family.

Anonymous said...

I just PRAY that USC does not find their way back into the BCS hunt...

I am happy that Les Miles and LSU choked at home against un-ranked Arkansas!!

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